Internal Firm Feedback
When you're paying $440 an hour, you want incredible service. And it was at times.
Note: Voices were altered to protect client privacy.
Here's how I describe it. I have a psychologist that I see every week. And when I email or call my psychologist, he's on it. Instantly. Within an hour, he gets back to you. And it's very detailed when he responds. And I know that's his job, and psychology and lawyers are different. But when you're paying $440 an hour, I expect top, top-level service, where they get back to you right away. Very detailed. And this could happen, and this could happen, and this could happen. Sometimes, lawyers are a little bit vague, but we have to trust them because they have the experience. It's very stressful, to begin with. So it's almost like you want them to... not make you feel better. That's the psychologist's job. I get they're two different jobs. But I remember sometimes you'd email your lawyer, and it'd be two days, three days until they'd get back to you. Or you feel like you're making two steps forward on the case, but then it's three steps back. And it's like, "Well, why don't we know all this right from day one?" But they have so many clients and so much on their mind that's not probably what they're thinking about. Where your psychologist, he knows you inside and out, so that's what they're thinking about. And I get they're two different jobs. I remember talking about that. I said, "I kind of wish my lawyer was like you." You send an email, and they're back to you within an hour and are very detailed. I don't understand the law. They do, so they can be vague.
I ended up paying like $90,000 plus for a lawyer out of my own pocket. When you're paying $440 an hour, you want incredible service. And it was at times. And I'd have to say to her, "There were a couple of things missed." like my WSIB income, for some reason, it was saying I made $130,000 or more. I don't know exactly the numbers, but I didn't make that much because WSIB was topping me up. The city was paying me. I think the city had to pay WSIB or something. Something to do with my taxes. And that was like months of trying to figure that out. And I'm like, "This is why I hired a lawyer."
When you're paying almost a hundred thousand dollars, that's not cheap. It's like a pro athlete. You expect them to be on their game all the time.
You've got to ground yourself and like, "Okay, I'm paying for this because I need a lawyer, and there's very few of them." And it's a service that they can charge whatever the heck they want because they know people will go to them. Then again, they have all the schooling and experience, so they can charge that. I'm so used to my psychologist, who has the best service possible, and that's the level I expected.
So more communication and helping to ease your mind a little bit more.
Exactly. Thank you. Ease your mind a bit more. Like "This is what could happen. You have a good chance." Or "You don't have a good chance." Or a lot of it's vague, and you're like, "What do I do? Well, you got to make a decision. You let us know." And I'm like, "Fuck. I've never done this before. How do I know?"
We had trials scheduled for April, and it was either settle on what we settled with after two and a half years of negotiating and back and forth or go to trial, and there were no guarantees. There wasn't like, "Yes, we got this, I got your back." You know how you watch movies? And you expect a lawyer to say, "I'll fight for you to the end. You got a great chance. Leave it with me." blah, blah, blah. But it's not like that at all. It's more like, "Here are the pros and cons. What do you want to do?" You're just like, "Holy crap. I just paid you almost six figures." You should tell me what to do. It was stressful.
I thought, "I don't want to upset her cause I need her." Like if things weren't going well, I'd have to ground myself. "Don't get mad, just explain it." Like I said, with the whole WSIB income and the income taxes that dragged on... And it's like, don't get mad. Talk it through, which we did. They apologized, and everything was fine. But that ended up costing quite a bit of money.
The other thing I noticed too, and I would tell Brenda this. I don't know if this means or matters at all, but she would hire attractive ladies. All very well put together attractive people in that office. I don't know if it just happened that way or... She would kind of chuckle every time I say it. And not in a bad way, in a nice way. Like you hire very well put-together people, she really does.
My ex wasn't responding to a lot of these messages, not cooperating. We had mediation scheduled, and Brenda was going to go with me. My ex bailed two days before. And Brenda's like, "We're going to go after costs now." But you can only go after costs if you win the trial. I didn't know that. So now you have to go all the way to trial to get some of your costs back. That's where I find the law system's kind of tricky. I ended up spending a lot of money because we had a very uncooperative other side.
I didn't think much of it. I just thought that's what you're supposed to do. I didn't look into that. I'm like, "Okay, here's four grand. Let's get the ball rolling." I didn't expect this to cost me $90,000, though, and change by the time I was done. I thought maybe 40.
I had these visions of, okay, getting bought out of the house. My house was worth 600 and something. The mortgage was only $72,000. The line of credit was, I think, a hundred. So that's not much debt. Pay that off. I should come out with 50 grand. I can start my life. Down payment, furniture, whatever. All I left with was my instruments, my gym, my dog, a few dishes, my personal things. And then I got a check for $72,000, but all my debts were like $65,000. So I got like seven grand.
At least I didn't come out in debt, which I was happy about. Because as the process went on, I started thinking, "Holy crap, am I going to be in debt now after all this?" Luckily, I wasn't, but I actually thought I'd get more. I thought I'd be able to start my life again.
Like I said before, when I'm paying someone $440 an hour, I expect At least very detailed emails that the average person can understand. I don't understand the law. And the part that would really frustrate me is, "Okay, we can sell the house, but I want you to be aware if we sell the house, a court system will hold your money and trust. You won't get your share, but (ex-wife) will get hers." And I'm like, "Pardon? How am I going to pay you then?" I'm like, "Why is that?" And she was like, "Well, because the court system..." I owed her an equalization payment. I owed her so much money. The courts hold it in trust, so the guy can't just go run off and leave the country or go spend that money or something. They hold it in trust. She would tell me that right before I had to make a decision. I'm like, "Why didn't you tell me this from day one?" It's these things that would upset me. You think you're making way, you're like, "Yes, I'm going to sell the house. I'll get my 250. I can pay Brenda." And then she tells me they're holding my money in trust. And I'm like, "What the...? I guess I can't sell the house. What benefit is it to sell the house? So I'll be going nesting again for another few months."
They don't lay everything out. Maybe there are a million possibilities. Maybe that's why they don't. Maybe it's when these things arise they tell you. It's like a doctor, "You're going to go into surgery, but here's what could happen." And that's sort of what a lawyer does. When it comes time to make a decision, they'll say, "You could sell your house, but the courts may hold your money in trust. They may not, but they may." In my mind, I'm like, "Why didn't you tell me this eight months ago, a year ago, when I first hired you?
I was always very positive with her and very thankful, which I very much am. It's just those little hiccups will come up. And it's like, you're happy. Right? And you're like, "Ah, yes, I can make a decision." Sell the house, whatever it is. And then it's like three steps back, and then you're down again. And then maybe a couple of months go by, and something else comes up in the process. Oh, like, "Okay, I can do this." And then the lawyer's like, "But there's this." And you're like, "Aargh." You know, it was one of those. Not that it's her fault because that's the law. But I just wish... I don't know. I guess there are a million different scenarios. They don't know it all, either.
In one of your notes, you could say, let the client know all possible outcomes right at the beginning. This is what you make. This is what she makes. If you sell the house, this could happen. If you go to court, this could happen. If you don't, this, this, this, and this. I know it's a lot, but as customers, we expect a lot when you're paying a lot. And I know they're busy, and they have hundreds of clients, but that's not our problem. Hire more lawyers, or don't take on so many clients.
I will say she doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy. No. It's very much a matter of fact. Feelings are not involved. She's a lawyer, and she's got a job to do, and that's it. And a good lawyer. But maybe I was just spoiled, not spoiled, but I have my psychologist who works in psychology. Totally different. Right? So, I always kind of compare the two. And I remember talking to my psychologist about that. I'm like, "Oh, I just wish Brenda was more like you with the emails and stuff." Because you'll send this nice long email. Like, what if this happens, this happens... Right? You put the time in, and you get like three lines back. The proposal will be sent on this day, this, this, and this... And you're like, "What the..., what?"
Because they know the law so well, they're very matter-of-fact. Maybe they expect everyone else to. I'd never heard of most of these terms until I started researching and talking to Brenda. But Holly, the life experience you get from this stuff.
In the beginning, did you feel like everything was explained and you knew what to expect? What the process?
No, no. Like I was saying before, lay it all out now. Here are your options. Be prepared. It's going to be hell. But they don't do that. They're just very matter-of-fact because they only have so much time. "Okay, do you have any questions?" But you can see they're high rollers. You're not intimidated, but even when you ask questions, it's hard to understand a lot of times. Then you're like, what does that mean again? Brenda had explained stuff to me so many times just cause I don't understand the law.
Going back to that one thing of your first consult or not even consult, because they don't want to waste their time telling you all the possible outcomes until you hire them. But in your first real meeting, they should say, "This is our plan of attack. This is what we're going to do." I think more confidence. They need to add more confidence into their clients. But then, if they do that... I always thought it'd be like the movies. You know when you see a lawyer. They're like, "We got this. We're going to win. We're going to fight to the end." It's not like that at all. At all.
I have to be honest. I asked myself a few times. Are you working for me or my ex-wife? Because there were some comments that I was just like, "Huh?" Like she would say things like, "She did contribute to your life and stuff." And I'm like, "Are you even supposed to say that? You're on team Andy." Or stuff like, "I actually think your ex did a decent job of representing herself." And I'm like, "Brenda, do not forget she wouldn't even respond to emails." And I actually said to her once, "I know you have a lot of clients, so maybe it's hard for you to keep track of everyone, but I'm only dealing with one other person, so I know everything that's going on." She would literally not respond to emails. Or ignore proposals. Come back with something crazy ridiculous. So for Brenda to say, "She actually did a decent job representing herself." that would just get under my skin.
In my mind, I'm just like, who are you working for? At times. But I think they just want to keep the peace, maybe. But then they start a lot of stuff. So, are they keeping the peace, or are they not? I don't know. Lawyers can be very ruthless in the way they write to the opposing people. They're just very matter of factual, and people don't like reading that stuff. No one likes to take accountability or look inside them.
I can only compare it to my experience with them. First time I've been divorced. First lawyer I've hired. Everything looked good to me. The only complaint I really have is maybe to let your clients feel a little bit better during the process and lay everything out. Everything else is 10 out of 10 and a 10 out of 10. I could say anything to Brenda right now. I have no problem saying that. The service, everything was incredible. I'd hire you again. I'd recommend anyone. But just maybe lay everything out upfront. It really emotionally was tough when she was like, "We could sell your house, but you're not going to get your money. Potentially." I'm like, "Why are you telling me this now? When I have to make this decision in two days from now?" that's the part. So as an outsider, my family, they'd be mad. And I'm trying to console them. Guys, it's okay. She's doing the best she can. They don't know every possible outcome. There are so many that could happen.
But even when you're dealing with her as her own client, it could sometimes be intimidating. But then I remember, I tell myself, "I'm paying her, so don't be intimidated. There's nothing to be intimidated about.
Compassion, no. Empathy, I don't think any of that. Honestly, I don't feel any empathy from her at all. She doesn't have time to be empathetic. Imagine the stories she hears. I thought my ex was bad. And she was like, "There's a lot worse." And I couldn't imagine it at the time. I'm like, "How's it possible to be worse than her?" She's like, "Ah, you'd be shocked." She doesn't have time to console everybody.
That's the thing. At the end of all this, Brenda even said to me, "You're very generous." And I'm just like, "Well, fuck. What am I supposed to do? I'm paying you to figure this shit out, and you're telling me I'm generous? So, do we go to trial, then? What do you want me to do?"
My monthly bills, on average, were between $2,500 to $4,000 a month. Put that in perspective. What would you expect when you pay that kind of money a month? That's more than the cost of living. All for a divorce. Why does it have to be this much? Why? I just don't want to be married anymore. Why does it have to cost me my whole life savings?
Comforting the clients would be one definite area of improvement. Brenda's tough. That's one thing. A little bit more compassion, I'll say.
I had no idea it'd be nesting for two years. It was only supposed to be two months. Two years of sharing a house with your ex-wife that's just crazy. No one could believe me. We thought a couple of months. So why not lay that all out now, at the beginning? "This could go on for three years. You could be sharing a house for this long. If you sell the house, this could happen." Why not lay everything out? They know from experience, I would think, of possible outcomes, especially for that kind of money. When you're paying someone $440 an hour, that's all I expect. A little bit of compassion and lay out all possible scenarios that could happen. And I know there are millions of them. Just narrow some of them down. The big ones.
I ended up paying like $90,000 plus for a lawyer out of my own pocket. When you're paying $440 an hour, you want incredible service. And it was at times. And I'd have to say to her, "There were a couple of things missed." like my WSIB income, for some reason, it was saying I made $130,000 or more. I don't know exactly the numbers, but I didn't make that much because WSIB was topping me up. The city was paying me. I think the city had to pay WSIB or something. Something to do with my taxes. And that was like months of trying to figure that out. And I'm like, "This is why I hired a lawyer."
When you're paying almost a hundred thousand dollars, that's not cheap. It's like a pro athlete. You expect them to be on their game all the time.
You've got to ground yourself and like, "Okay, I'm paying for this because I need a lawyer, and there's very few of them." And it's a service that they can charge whatever the heck they want because they know people will go to them. Then again, they have all the schooling and experience, so they can charge that. I'm so used to my psychologist, who has the best service possible, and that's the level I expected.
So more communication and helping to ease your mind a little bit more.
Exactly. Thank you. Ease your mind a bit more. Like "This is what could happen. You have a good chance." Or "You don't have a good chance." Or a lot of it's vague, and you're like, "What do I do? Well, you got to make a decision. You let us know." And I'm like, "Fuck. I've never done this before. How do I know?"
We had trials scheduled for April, and it was either settle on what we settled with after two and a half years of negotiating and back and forth or go to trial, and there were no guarantees. There wasn't like, "Yes, we got this, I got your back." You know how you watch movies? And you expect a lawyer to say, "I'll fight for you to the end. You got a great chance. Leave it with me." blah, blah, blah. But it's not like that at all. It's more like, "Here are the pros and cons. What do you want to do?" You're just like, "Holy crap. I just paid you almost six figures." You should tell me what to do. It was stressful.
I thought, "I don't want to upset her cause I need her." Like if things weren't going well, I'd have to ground myself. "Don't get mad, just explain it." Like I said, with the whole WSIB income and the income taxes that dragged on... And it's like, don't get mad. Talk it through, which we did. They apologized, and everything was fine. But that ended up costing quite a bit of money.
The other thing I noticed too, and I would tell Brenda this. I don't know if this means or matters at all, but she would hire attractive ladies. All very well put together attractive people in that office. I don't know if it just happened that way or... She would kind of chuckle every time I say it. And not in a bad way, in a nice way. Like you hire very well put-together people, she really does.
My ex wasn't responding to a lot of these messages, not cooperating. We had mediation scheduled, and Brenda was going to go with me. My ex bailed two days before. And Brenda's like, "We're going to go after costs now." But you can only go after costs if you win the trial. I didn't know that. So now you have to go all the way to trial to get some of your costs back. That's where I find the law system's kind of tricky. I ended up spending a lot of money because we had a very uncooperative other side.
I didn't think much of it. I just thought that's what you're supposed to do. I didn't look into that. I'm like, "Okay, here's four grand. Let's get the ball rolling." I didn't expect this to cost me $90,000, though, and change by the time I was done. I thought maybe 40.
I had these visions of, okay, getting bought out of the house. My house was worth 600 and something. The mortgage was only $72,000. The line of credit was, I think, a hundred. So that's not much debt. Pay that off. I should come out with 50 grand. I can start my life. Down payment, furniture, whatever. All I left with was my instruments, my gym, my dog, a few dishes, my personal things. And then I got a check for $72,000, but all my debts were like $65,000. So I got like seven grand.
At least I didn't come out in debt, which I was happy about. Because as the process went on, I started thinking, "Holy crap, am I going to be in debt now after all this?" Luckily, I wasn't, but I actually thought I'd get more. I thought I'd be able to start my life again.
Like I said before, when I'm paying someone $440 an hour, I expect At least very detailed emails that the average person can understand. I don't understand the law. And the part that would really frustrate me is, "Okay, we can sell the house, but I want you to be aware if we sell the house, a court system will hold your money and trust. You won't get your share, but (ex-wife) will get hers." And I'm like, "Pardon? How am I going to pay you then?" I'm like, "Why is that?" And she was like, "Well, because the court system..." I owed her an equalization payment. I owed her so much money. The courts hold it in trust, so the guy can't just go run off and leave the country or go spend that money or something. They hold it in trust. She would tell me that right before I had to make a decision. I'm like, "Why didn't you tell me this from day one?" It's these things that would upset me. You think you're making way, you're like, "Yes, I'm going to sell the house. I'll get my 250. I can pay Brenda." And then she tells me they're holding my money in trust. And I'm like, "What the...? I guess I can't sell the house. What benefit is it to sell the house? So I'll be going nesting again for another few months."
They don't lay everything out. Maybe there are a million possibilities. Maybe that's why they don't. Maybe it's when these things arise they tell you. It's like a doctor, "You're going to go into surgery, but here's what could happen." And that's sort of what a lawyer does. When it comes time to make a decision, they'll say, "You could sell your house, but the courts may hold your money in trust. They may not, but they may." In my mind, I'm like, "Why didn't you tell me this eight months ago, a year ago, when I first hired you?
I was always very positive with her and very thankful, which I very much am. It's just those little hiccups will come up. And it's like, you're happy. Right? And you're like, "Ah, yes, I can make a decision." Sell the house, whatever it is. And then it's like three steps back, and then you're down again. And then maybe a couple of months go by, and something else comes up in the process. Oh, like, "Okay, I can do this." And then the lawyer's like, "But there's this." And you're like, "Aargh." You know, it was one of those. Not that it's her fault because that's the law. But I just wish... I don't know. I guess there are a million different scenarios. They don't know it all, either.
In one of your notes, you could say, let the client know all possible outcomes right at the beginning. This is what you make. This is what she makes. If you sell the house, this could happen. If you go to court, this could happen. If you don't, this, this, this, and this. I know it's a lot, but as customers, we expect a lot when you're paying a lot. And I know they're busy, and they have hundreds of clients, but that's not our problem. Hire more lawyers, or don't take on so many clients.
I will say she doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy. No. It's very much a matter of fact. Feelings are not involved. She's a lawyer, and she's got a job to do, and that's it. And a good lawyer. But maybe I was just spoiled, not spoiled, but I have my psychologist who works in psychology. Totally different. Right? So, I always kind of compare the two. And I remember talking to my psychologist about that. I'm like, "Oh, I just wish Brenda was more like you with the emails and stuff." Because you'll send this nice long email. Like, what if this happens, this happens... Right? You put the time in, and you get like three lines back. The proposal will be sent on this day, this, this, and this... And you're like, "What the..., what?"
Because they know the law so well, they're very matter-of-fact. Maybe they expect everyone else to. I'd never heard of most of these terms until I started researching and talking to Brenda. But Holly, the life experience you get from this stuff.
In the beginning, did you feel like everything was explained and you knew what to expect? What the process?
No, no. Like I was saying before, lay it all out now. Here are your options. Be prepared. It's going to be hell. But they don't do that. They're just very matter-of-fact because they only have so much time. "Okay, do you have any questions?" But you can see they're high rollers. You're not intimidated, but even when you ask questions, it's hard to understand a lot of times. Then you're like, what does that mean again? Brenda had explained stuff to me so many times just cause I don't understand the law.
Going back to that one thing of your first consult or not even consult, because they don't want to waste their time telling you all the possible outcomes until you hire them. But in your first real meeting, they should say, "This is our plan of attack. This is what we're going to do." I think more confidence. They need to add more confidence into their clients. But then, if they do that... I always thought it'd be like the movies. You know when you see a lawyer. They're like, "We got this. We're going to win. We're going to fight to the end." It's not like that at all. At all.
I have to be honest. I asked myself a few times. Are you working for me or my ex-wife? Because there were some comments that I was just like, "Huh?" Like she would say things like, "She did contribute to your life and stuff." And I'm like, "Are you even supposed to say that? You're on team Andy." Or stuff like, "I actually think your ex did a decent job of representing herself." And I'm like, "Brenda, do not forget she wouldn't even respond to emails." And I actually said to her once, "I know you have a lot of clients, so maybe it's hard for you to keep track of everyone, but I'm only dealing with one other person, so I know everything that's going on." She would literally not respond to emails. Or ignore proposals. Come back with something crazy ridiculous. So for Brenda to say, "She actually did a decent job representing herself." that would just get under my skin.
In my mind, I'm just like, who are you working for? At times. But I think they just want to keep the peace, maybe. But then they start a lot of stuff. So, are they keeping the peace, or are they not? I don't know. Lawyers can be very ruthless in the way they write to the opposing people. They're just very matter of factual, and people don't like reading that stuff. No one likes to take accountability or look inside them.
I can only compare it to my experience with them. First time I've been divorced. First lawyer I've hired. Everything looked good to me. The only complaint I really have is maybe to let your clients feel a little bit better during the process and lay everything out. Everything else is 10 out of 10 and a 10 out of 10. I could say anything to Brenda right now. I have no problem saying that. The service, everything was incredible. I'd hire you again. I'd recommend anyone. But just maybe lay everything out upfront. It really emotionally was tough when she was like, "We could sell your house, but you're not going to get your money. Potentially." I'm like, "Why are you telling me this now? When I have to make this decision in two days from now?" that's the part. So as an outsider, my family, they'd be mad. And I'm trying to console them. Guys, it's okay. She's doing the best she can. They don't know every possible outcome. There are so many that could happen.
But even when you're dealing with her as her own client, it could sometimes be intimidating. But then I remember, I tell myself, "I'm paying her, so don't be intimidated. There's nothing to be intimidated about.
Compassion, no. Empathy, I don't think any of that. Honestly, I don't feel any empathy from her at all. She doesn't have time to be empathetic. Imagine the stories she hears. I thought my ex was bad. And she was like, "There's a lot worse." And I couldn't imagine it at the time. I'm like, "How's it possible to be worse than her?" She's like, "Ah, you'd be shocked." She doesn't have time to console everybody.
That's the thing. At the end of all this, Brenda even said to me, "You're very generous." And I'm just like, "Well, fuck. What am I supposed to do? I'm paying you to figure this shit out, and you're telling me I'm generous? So, do we go to trial, then? What do you want me to do?"
My monthly bills, on average, were between $2,500 to $4,000 a month. Put that in perspective. What would you expect when you pay that kind of money a month? That's more than the cost of living. All for a divorce. Why does it have to be this much? Why? I just don't want to be married anymore. Why does it have to cost me my whole life savings?
Comforting the clients would be one definite area of improvement. Brenda's tough. That's one thing. A little bit more compassion, I'll say.
I had no idea it'd be nesting for two years. It was only supposed to be two months. Two years of sharing a house with your ex-wife that's just crazy. No one could believe me. We thought a couple of months. So why not lay that all out now, at the beginning? "This could go on for three years. You could be sharing a house for this long. If you sell the house, this could happen." Why not lay everything out? They know from experience, I would think, of possible outcomes, especially for that kind of money. When you're paying someone $440 an hour, that's all I expect. A little bit of compassion and lay out all possible scenarios that could happen. And I know there are millions of them. Just narrow some of them down. The big ones.
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Family Law Group
1579, Hyde Park Road
London, ON, N6H 5L4
Phone: (519) 672-5953